[00:40:29]
Darrell:
It’s not that we are stopping any tendencies to go away from the present moment, but to learn how to integrate our attention to bring in the past, to bring in the future, but then to get honest with ourselves and humble at what’s actually here.
[Music plays]
Alida:
Welcome to the Care Work podcast. I’m your host Alida Miranda-Wolff and for the last ten years as a diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging practitioner I’ve focused on providing care to other people for a living. This is a podcast about people like me, care workers. I explore with a host of guests what it means to offer care and to take care of ourselves in the process.
Darrell Jones is a minister, spiritual director, and mindfulness coach who brings twenty years of personal practice and over fourteen years of professional experience to inspiring, teaching, and coaching individuals, spiritual communities, and business groups. In 2021 he published his book, Soul Gym which focuses on integrating the mind, the body, and the spirit to provide a holistic soul experience.
In our conversation today we talk about our past shared history. Darrell was my mindfulness and meditation instructor, both in retreats and in a formal certification program, and we talk about his path from rock star to minister, to spiritual leader, coach, and author today.
Throughout the conversation you will hear invaluable insights in how to care for yourself, engage in a visioning practice that is rooted in ever-expanding principles and ultimately how to move beyond being stuck in the past or fixated on the future, and learn to truly be present.
Alida:
Hi Darrell.
Darrell:
Hi there.
Alida:
I’m so excited to have you on board. I have to say it’s an interesting new context for me because I met you in 2018 through the Chill Anywhere Mindfulness community, and I had a lot of really intense experiences with you because I went on two different meditation retreats that you lead, and actually met some of your family, and you met some of mine, and then I also went through my mindfulness certification with you, and through that I learned a lot about your history and all the different work that you’ve done in terms of this world of care, not just through Chill but in your own practice as a minister, as an author, as a mindfulness and meditation expert. So, I’m really interested to see where this discussion goes because I’m very used to being in a student-teacher dynamic with you.
Darrell:
I’m looking forward to seeing where the conversation goes as well organically today.
Alida:
So, I would love to start with what it means to you to be a care worker? What that phrase means, but also if you have to introduce yourself from that lens. Who are you as a care worker?
Darrell:
Sure. So, I am a care worker. I consider myself that. My formal title is Reverend Darrell Jones, and I think for most people that have engaged with clergy in some way, regardless of what the denomination or the actual religious or philosophical background they are affiliated with, oftentimes spiritual or religious leaders are in the space of care. They are caring for a community whether it be a small community of ten in a small rural church somewhere, or it could be in today’s age a virtual community that, you know, spans cultures and time zones. But, ultimately, caring for someone’s spiritual well-being, which again, we can go down the rabbit hole of what that means. I think it means a lot of different things for various people. In my role, the spiritual well-being or caretaking that I offer shows up as doing one on one coaching and direction with individuals who are grappling with something personally or they are looking to expand their lives, or ultimately just bring their sense of spirituality into their existence in a greater way. I’m there to act almost like a trainer or a coach. I’m not telling them that they have to do something. I’m not coming from a dogmatic space of care. It’s really nurturing them in their space. And then, that also looks like where you experienced it in the more mindfulness space community, which is more secular, which is typically void of any heavy religious or spiritual overtones. It’s caring for someone’s mental and emotional well-being using the practice of mindfulness and in particular the discipline, exercise of meditation.
So, those are the two worlds that I kind of straddle, which is fun and the thing that’s true that I have found is that you can’t separate them. So, if someone has a spiritual life, they don’t leave it at home. It follows them to work. We may try to leave it at home, and we may try to leave our work life or personal life, or other professional endeavors outside of our spiritual selves, but you can’t really, you know, compartmentalize ourselves but you can portion yourself and leave part of you somewhere. So, that integration is where I really see myself as a care worker as I help people integrate all facets of their life together, bringing their full or their whole selves to anything and everything that they do, and in particular looking at it through the lens of helping them embrace whatever their spiritual truth and reality may be.
Alida:
When you started your career, is this what you thought you would be doing?
Darrell:
[Laugh] Not at all. My undergrad, my B.A. is in Music. So, I wanted to be a rock star. I wanted to make lots of money in the music industry. I just turned 49 this past year so I’m definitely a kid of the eighties. And so, I grew up with the UMTV raps [? 00:06:23] and VH1 and MTV, and all of those things, and I wanted to like, make big videos. Then, I realized there was a lot of shenanigans on the business side with that, so I just wanted to be the guy in the background. So, then I became a producer. I wanted to sell a thirty-second, you know, [loop 00:06:47] to Jay Z for $50,000 [Laugh] and try to make my living that way. And that still had a lot of aspects of things. But I always loved music, and I always loved education. So, I always found myself in the role of coaching, even in the music world when people were coming to a studio much like this and you would hear yourself through headphones. People that could be the most amazing singers would freak out because their voice sounded different than what they were used to. They needed some coaching to get themselves back onto being present. And that was probably the beginning of me really embracing mindfulness. I didn’t know it at the time. But as I did more and more of that work in the music realm, I also found myself teaching, because I love kids and , and I taught pre-k through eighth grade music. And there is one kid that always comes to mind that was kind of like boy’s boy, kind of rough around the edges. Had a big machismo edge to him, but really, really sweet. And one day, he came in the class. Something obviously had gone on in his life that was challenging for him and he was usually getting attention through being a bit of a jokester in class. And someone came back with a joke towards him that he didn’t particularly like, and he couldn’t handle it because of whatever his emotional space was, and he was broken to tears. And being a very macho ten-year-old boy, he didn’t want to cry in front of everyone, so he stormed out of the classroom. And that was a turning moment for me where I realized there was something powerful in working with children regardless of what the content may be. I knew that music didn’t make or break someone’s ability to grow up and be an effective adult. But for me music was a big outlet for understanding myself and my spirituality. So, that’s how I initially walked into that particular content area of music. But I realize what was more important to me, what disturbed me more, what engaged me more was what was going on in that little boy’s mind and heart. What was happening, not that I could solve what was or wasn’t happening in his family, but could I be an uncle, could I be a mentor, could I be a teacher, could I be someone in his life that would give him some tools to help him cope and manage with whatever was going on. And, after that school year I didn’t go back into the traditional classroom. I started to explore other venues.
So, I definitely did not wake up going: “Oh, I want to be Reverend Darrell, a minister who does spiritual coaching, and you know, talks and is an author.” I had a very, very different view of what my life would look like. But, just found myself listening to what life was asking of me. I found myself listening to the skill set that was inherent within me, but also the ones that were being fine-tuned in my adult and professional life. And as I leaned into that a little bit more, I found myself getting drawn into the work that I do now.
Alida:
This moment when you realized life is asking something of you. How does that tie to your spiritual journey?
Darrell:
So, I am a preacher’s kid. I’m a son of a preacher man, so I always had traditional religion, although I didn’t understand until I left home that the upbringing that I had was very, very left off-center than most preacher’s kids. [Laugh] I wasn’t baptized until I chose to be at age fourteen as opposed to happening as an infant. My mother liked to refer to God as She instead of He all the time because she was not in favor of it only being a singular, you know, personification.
So, I grew up in the church. I enjoyed it for the most part but there were aspects that did challenge me. And it was less at that time the dogma or the theology. I didn’t have enough understanding, but it was the people. So, some of the community members challenged me. And I found myself just frustrated, so I tried to separate my spirituality. I tried to separate my sense of religion from my life by just not engaging in it formally. And [Sigh] I guess whatever the community aspect supported me in terms of singing songs and high holidays, and prayer, and worship and other things like that, after a while I started to feel that void. Because I hadn’t attended any community for a number of years, in particular through my undergrad years and beyond. And I found myself stumbling, wandering back into more traditional church settings looking for some sense of spirituality and I was met with not so much spirituality but all I could see, touch, taste, and feel were the aspects of the government or the governance of church, the politics of religious communities, and it just didn’t allow me to access my spirituality.
So, I still felt this hunger and I was trying to get into the spaces, a literal space is where I had access, connection to what I would call spirit or God, or universe, or love, or intelligence, wisdom. But there were aspects of the actual formation of these communities that were barriers for me to have any sense of a spiritual experience. So, I found myself really, really frustrated. Probably, everything is interconnected. So, at the time I was married fairly young in my early twenties, and this is around the same time that I was trying to figure out who am I? What’s going on? What is my spirituality? Not finding an outlet for it. But my marriage became very rocky. It wasn’t inherently broken or wrong, but we just weren’t connecting anymore. We didn’t have a support system and we didn’t have the maturity and emotional intelligence at the time to really have some powerful conversations that needed to take place. And as a result, we ended up divorcing. As a part of that journey, I started going to therapy and that kind of became my new spirituality for a while because it was about the self-awareness and self-awakening. And one of the practices that my therapist encouraged was meditation. All of the self-help books that I was reading whether they were more traditional, like I read one book that was specific about divorce, but I read many books that were just about, you know, self-development and improvement, all of them talked about self-awareness. And the one exercise or practice that almost all of them pointed to is some way of getting more aware was meditation. And so, I guess not being able to access physical, spiritual, and religious community I was pushed inward and so the temple, the space of worship, the space of awareness, the space of connection to God or the divine or spirituality was within myself. And so that’s where it went and it rested for a while, it became this practice of communing with what I call Spirit or The One within myself. But then I still felt hunger and in terms of that calling I’ve been drawn. I was trying to find like-minded people that were thinking along the same way of mine. Because I grew up, I realized [inaudible 00:14:37] left off-center protestant Christianity, but now I was pushing the envelope even further to the right. So that’s …I think ultimately what pulled me into the work that I do. I was working downtown as a Senior Executive Assistant in a logistics company and was doing music on the side. I was a wedding singer, singing on a wedding band and trying to do the studio and all this other music production stuff. And everyone even musically that I was with, we were all kind of in this hungry, uncertain trying to figure ourselves out stage, and we were literally passing books to one another. “Oh, I’m reading Eckhart Tolle about this”. “Oh, I’m reading Deepak Chopra on this”. “Oh, this is the latest and greatest, you know, suggestion from Oprah”. [Laugh] This was way before you could do a quick Google search and have a laundry list of things to do. This was the late nineties. So, I found myself connecting to other musicians that were on the spiritual awakening path and then so much, so I was invited to help launch a community here that unfortunately isn’t in existence anymore. It was first called The Chicago Center for Spiritual Living and then it morphed into what was called The Bodhi Spiritual Center. And I was one of the founding members of that back in 2003, and you know, I couldn’t basically find what I was looking for, so I helped create it. And in creating that there were lots of opportunities for leadership and work, so that’s how my professional as well as my spiritual life started to merge back together into what, you know, it kind of looks like now.
Alida:
What strikes me is a lot of what you shared around reflection and self-inquiry, and contemplation is what I took most away from you as a teacher. So, when I reflect on my mindfulness certification I think of only two exercises, and there was so much I learned and there was so much packed in, and there were so many hours. One of those memories though, was a meditation that you introduced that I was very surprised by. I wasn’t expecting it because we’ve been doing a lot of breath work, we’ve been doing a lot of flame meditation where we focused on the candle flame moving, and it was very somatic. And you introduced this meditation where you asked us to consider and visualize what our highest version of ourselves in the future was. What that highest vision was. And then, you had us sit with that visualization and asked: “What do I need to embrace to achieve this vision? And What do I need to release?” And I’ve been using that practice for years now. I’ve even used a version of that in journaling exercises with my clients who are involved in trauma for leadership work here at Ethos, and so I wanted to talk to you a little bit more about how you used that contemplative practice on yourself, on others, with others.
Darrell:
So, that practice was introduced to me back in 2003, when I first, you know, kind of dove into the deep end of what I consider my contemporary or modern spiritual practice. And just to give kind of props and honors to where it came from, the Dr. Reverend Michael Bernard Beckwith who launched the community I think almost 40 years ago now, named The Agape, International Agape Spiritual Center in L.A. It was a fundamental practice that he birthed his community out of and all of the people that kind of came under him and trained under him as ministers and spiritual practitioners carried that into their work and another minister who was formative in my life, Reverend Mark Anthony Lord brought that practice to Chicago. He is the one that actually launched The Chicago Center for Spiritual Living in 2003. And so, I learned the practice as I was using it, right?
We as a community didn’t…everyone had great ideas, right? There was no problem. We are immersed in a sea of creativity here in Chicago. And that particular community drew upon a lot of cultural creatives. And so, everyone had great ideas. Most of the people that were drawn to this community were kind of stepchildren of old traditions. So, people were bringing aspects of Judaism, aspects of Christianity whether it be Protestant practices or Catholic practices. People that even grew up in more of a traditional Eastern, Hindu practices or Buddhist practices but were looking to bring some modernity to things, we all kind of merged together to this melting pot and the invitation was: How do we take all this fantastic history and make it contemporary? And the premise that Reverend Michael Beckwith brought forward with visioning is this is where it becomes a spiritual practice. If you think of the universe as always expanding, right? It’s not contracting, it is on some level a full vision that started way before anyone can track it. And so, whether it is the planet Earth or Pluto or another star system or galaxy, it is just only continuing to expand out. And on some level, you could say that that the vision for the universe is to expand, to grow, to just become more of itself and iterate itself uniquely as life. So, that is a very, very large vision. That is a very, very expansive and kind of overwhelming idea but to bring the principle, this is the thing I love about the work that I was trained in. Is that the spirituality is based in the idea of principles. There is a principle that if there is a vision always expanding, that principle exists on the large macrocosm of the universe, but it also exists on the microcosm known as you, known as me, and anyone else. So, we can vision for ourselves so we can come together as a romantic couple, envisioned together. What is the highest vision for us in partnership or if we are about to have a child? Or we just had a child. You sit down and you vision: What is the highest vision for me and my child? For them as a child as me for an adult. Or in a larger community or in a business setting. What is the highest vision for this team? What is the highest vision for this project? What is the highest vision for next quarter? You know, it matters what you ask, but it doesn’t matter what you ask. The principle of visioning can work on any level. And so, it’s been a fundamental part of my personal living. It started off as kind of a New Year’s thing, you would do every year around the end of December, beginning of January. Then I realized it needed to be touched upon more than just once a year because the vision is always evolving. And it became a powerful integration tool because it lets you sit in the practice of checking in with the vision, but then not keeping the vision blocked to a certain level, right?
It’s like: Okay, so you’ve gone through one quarter, two quarters, three quarters of the year and you may still have hopes, dreams, and aspirations that are greater than what’s actually happening in your life right now. But to ask: Is this still the highest vision? And to me two of the most powerful questions are: What is it that I need to embrace right now in my life to continue to support it? And then What do I need to release? Most of the time everyone is seeking to find: What is it that I need to start doing in [inaudible word 00:23:04] and that’s where marketing comes in and all the ads on Instagram and any other platforms: “you need to do this, and you need to do this, and you need to do that”. And there’s this exhaustion that I think that can happen for most of us, at least I’ll speak for myself. What’s the next best thing?
And there is always science. There is always development. There is always expansion. That’s awesome. And sometimes we need to ask ourselves: Well, there is only so much space or bandwidth that I can actually maintain. Is there something that I need to let go of that’s not serving me? Is there something that I need to stop doing? Instead of adding more to my plate, and that too, again became this really liberating idea. Like, it wasn’t about just trying to make my arms as wide as possible and hold on to as much as I can. It gave me license to go: “Oh! This is something that’s not serving me”. And sometimes it was physically something that needed to be released. Most of the time it was more of a mental or an emotional relationship to life that needed to be released. So, the practice of visioning was and is this really, really great exercise that’s a great tool if you will to engage our mind, to engage our intellect, to engage our heart and kind of that feeling space within us. It engage our intuitive guts as well, but it brings them all together and invites us to not compartmentalize ourselves, to go back to that idea.
Alida:
This idea of compartmentalization has come up in our conversation today, but also in past conversations. And one of the things that I noticed was you talked about the alternative to compartmentalization is reintegration, to existing with different parts of ourselves not [inaudible word 00:24:55] from one another but in harmony. And in theory that sounds really beautiful and balanced. And in practice doesn’t necessarily always feel that way. So, in wearing your spiritual coach hat, what do you do to help people who maybe don’t have all of those years of patience cultivated get to this place of reintegration?
Darrell:
I don’t think there is a single destination to get to where integration is complete or where integration is fully realized. Our living is integration. Period. And so, sometimes just reminding individuals of that, that you know, we have again, I’m a fan of social media but I find it very challenging because it does allow us to almost present the perfect version of ourselves. We get to edit who we are to the world that’s looking upon us and in reality we don’t get to do that. The only editing we get to do is in real time, right? If you are in a meeting and you say something that may upset someone, you can’t rewind back five seconds and slice out the thing that you said. You’ve got to find a way to be in relationship to whatever just came out of your mouth that someone found offensive, or harmful, or upsetting. And to be present, to bring it back to some of the mindfulness practice work, being present and available to the moment is where you can actually make some course corrections. And that is a critical cornerstone I guess of integration is to be present. It’s not about doing something in reverse time or going forward in time and trying to strategize and catastrophize and make something available or ready for when you get to that point. It’s just being able to stay in the moment as best you can. And so, most of the times when I’m coaching someone individually, the place that they are living from or working from is not the present. They are living in the shame, in the embarrassment, in the unforgiveness, in the sadness of what is no longer, or they are attempting to prepare for the onslaught of whatever they think it’s coming. And there is nothing wrong with living that way. We have to do that on some level. Most of the jobs that we work in require that, right? Especially if we do any sort of data processing, you are not in the present, you are looking at stuff that happened in the past. But there is so much wisdom to bring forward into the present and if you are a strategist or you are a consultant, or anyone that is in a leadership role, you are trying to move an organization, a team, or an industry towards the future.
So, you have to run into the future and kind of catastrophize and wonder. But the place where we actually can live and choose and be powerful is in the present. So, someone who is really trying to deepen their spiritual living it’s not that we are stopping any tendencies to go away from the present moment, but to learn how to integrate our attention to bring it the past to bring in the future but then to get honest with ourselves and humble at what’s actually here.
Alida:
What do you observe about folks who don’t know who they are or say that they don’t know who they are? Maybe they do, but they say that they don’t. And who are coming from a place of fear or trauma in the present.
Darrell:
So, I’ll start with that idea of someone not knowing who they are. If someone
says they don’t know who they are, then that’s where the work begins. I usually say, you know, bull crap or something a little bit harsher to that. [Laugh] When someone says they don’t know who they are. We all know who we are on some level. We may not know the totality of who we are, but there is something about ourselves that we can know and identify, and you know, I’m not a therapist, but I do know enough about psychology in the human order of how we can we disassociate and jump away from ourselves if anything is uncomfortable to use some of that trauma language. So, it is very challenging for some people to get present to who they are, and this is where the spiritual work comes in. This is where to get present it requires us to be compassionate, it requires us to be kind, it requires us to be loving and patient. And most of us, at least I didn’t until I was well into my twenties really received earnest training on how to be kind, compassionate, and loving to myself. So, the journey oftentimes just starts with acceptance as opposed to – Who am I? Let’s just accept if it’s just: “I don’t know who I am”. I am a leaf being blown by the winds of the day. That is who I am. That’s who I understand myself to be and sometimes bringing a kind attention to that is enough to start softening, opening something up. And usually, it’s not, the challenge of this work is that it is not immediate, right? It is not a quick fix. This is something that requires an investment and a desire to sustain oneself.
So, can someone have a huge, you know, shift after an hour long session? Absolutely, absolutely. But we are creatures of habit. We are animals to start going into the trauma and fear space. We are animals. So, we have so much within us biochemically and nervously that has nothing to do with our rational thinking. And we may understand something intellectually, but if haven’t exercised it in a while, in some way, shape or form in areas where it feels easy and especially in areas where it feels challenging, then it’s hard for us to have any semblance of sustainable sense of self that is whole and healthy.
So, the challenge of the pandemic, just to step away from the kind of like usual high kind of sensationalized versions of trauma where someone has been sexually abused, physically beaten, where it’s harsh, it’s just not good, right? Coming out of that is a very, very, very specific journey and to look at the pandemic, there was physical harshness, there was mental and emotional harshness to the whole thing, but it was all being sustained by fear. And fear is something that works for us in our animal state. It protects us in moments of emergency. If I’m walking down the street and I hear a loud crack, I’m going to all of a sudden look all around me and I’m going to probably move on to my toes and try to find which way can I run, so that whatever that sound was that sounds threatening to me doesn’t actually physically hurt me, right? So, let’s say a branch is about to fall, there was a big windstorm or something. I don’t exactly know where it is, but I start to hear that crack and my senses go really, really high and I’m looking around and I sense there is somewhere that is safer than this space, and I’m going to get myself there. That serves us really well. The challenge is that in the pandemic we were in that state of fear when there wasn’t actually something in the room with us that was physically threatening us, but our nervous system responded as if, and it was hard for us to get out of that loop, especially if we were watching the news excessively.
I mean, there was no place to go. You turn on the TV, you turn on the radio, you open up any of your apps and it was all talking about these things that were causing and inducing a great state of fear. Fear is not an intellectually strong state. It is solely there to protect us from immediate threat, which is an amazing thing. But if we don’t have a real viable threat that is about to incringe upon our physical well-being, then to be in that state of fear is not very intellectual because it compromises our capacity to relate to situations, to have conversations, and so for any of us who have experienced trauma, usually what happens is that we get triggered into that state of fear, that feels threatening. And it makes it hard for us to manage and cope with situations, whether they be “easy or normal life situations” or more intense. We all have our different trauma experience.
Alida:
So, I would love to talk a little bit more as we end today’s podcast episode about the book, why you wrote it and what’s in it.
Darrell:
Sure. When it comes to our spirituality, the reason that I wrote Soul Gym was as a minister working in more traditional communities where we would have Sunday service, we would do prayer after service, we would have workshops, I’d do one on one coaching and counseling, people would be in that heightened state. They’d have a soulful experience. Their body was feeling relaxed and safe. Their mind was intellectually stimulated, and some element of their spirit was awakened, so they would call it a soulful morning, a soulful workshop, even sometimes a soulful meal when you go out with people that really just get you going.
The challenge is that when that soulful experience ends, especially in the spiritual context, we kind of get sucked back into all patterns, mindsets, heart sets [? 00:35:30] if you will, and that was one of the frustrating components of being a care worker, was supporting someone in the moment and bringing them into a space of soul connection where they were like: “Oh, yeah, life isn’t as bad as I’m making it out to be. I can do something today. Yes, thank you so much.” We did this great session. And then I would see people walk out the front door, and the phone would ring, and it was almost like they were a different person. I could see their facial expression change, their body language would change, and there was no judgement upon that, but it was that quickly that they would lose the inspiration, the insight, and the awareness of that soulful moment that they had whether it was with me individually or in a workshop, or in a service.
So, I was interested in spending less time in traditional, spiritual practices, in traditional spaces and going: “Oh! What if I could coach people whether it’s one on one or in groups, but doing something on a regular daily basis? And that was the whole idea of the Soul Gym. It’s like, okay, people understand that a gym is there, especially if you are a member of a gym. You have membership, you can go every day, but it’s open and you work out to the level that you exercise, is to the level of benefit that you get. And so, the book is a manual to connect mind, body, and spirit for soulful living. And in the book is that visioning practice that you spoke about along with looking at meditation, looking at what some people would call prayer or affirmative words, the power of reading. And in terms of putting good content, nutrition into our intellectual space and then writing, journaling, some sort of getting the thoughts outside of your head and onto a page. These are some of the fundamental exercises to me in the Soul Gym that if we are doing them on a daily basis, not that you have to do all those practices every day. But you are doing something every single day to exercise your mind, body, and spirit. You have a tendency to have this rich, soulful life everywhere you go, and that’s ultimately, you know, I wrote it during the pandemic. It was an idea that came beforehand, but I was like, I’ve got time to do it now and no doubt people are going to need and be hungry for a more soulful life after, you know, this kind of time of crazy if you will, and uncertainty, and fear. People are going to need something to help them get back into a sense of self in a positive way. And it was my hope and intention that the book would support that.
Alida:
I therefore highly endorse Soul Gym to listeners today, and apart from getting your own copy as an action item coming out of today’s session, my very last question for you, Darrell is: What do you ask people to do coming out of listening to this conversation today?
Darrell:
Well, there’s two things that I ask them to do. The first is – if you don’t have any sort of regular practice, and I just used the word practice. I’m not even going to put the word spiritual in front of it right now. If you don’t have some sort of regular self-awareness practice, start one. And that can start with just three breaths, breathing in and out three times and just kind of checking in, feeling your body in the seat that you are standing, feeling the feet on the floor wherever that may be. It may seem like nothing, but it’s everything. If you do that every day as much as you brush your teeth, which I hope that you do that every day, you will notice a shift in your awareness. In terms of me supporting you or pointing you in the direction of someone else that can support you, depending upon where you are listening to this. If you want to do something in person, check out my website revdarrelljones.com
That is the place where I’ll be updating, you know, whether it’s more of a secular work that I do, or more of the spiritual work, it’s all the same soul work. And I would love to see you online or in person at an event. There is a handful coming up in the Chicago area depending upon when, I can’t remember when this broadcast, but that’s always the place that has the most updated info.
Alida:
Thank you so much. It’s been an absolute pleasure.
Darrell:
Thank you Alida. This has been a joy.
[Music plays]
Alida:
This podcast is a collaboration between Ethos and Alida Miranda-Wolff.
Episodes are available anywhere podcasts are found.
Your host is Alida Miranda-Wolff.
The opening theme Vibing Introspectively was written and recorded by Logan Snodgrass.
Production assistance was provided by Sonni Conway and Miera Garcia.
All sound editing and production was provided by Corey Winter.
[End of recording] [00:40:29]
