[00:39:09]
Erica:
And I think for a lot of patients that is what gets them back on track. And yet, when they are discharged, they are not given a creative arts therapy discharge plan, right? They are set up with a social worker, a therapist, maybe an outpatient program. But if dance or art, music or drama therapy is really what helps them reconnect to themselves and start their road to recovery, why would we send them out into the world without that?
[Music plays]
Alida:
Welcome to the Care Work podcast. I’m your host Alida Miranda-Wolff and for the last ten years as a diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging practitioner I’ve focused on providing care to other people for a living. This is a podcast about people like me, care workers. I explore with a host of guests what it means to offer care and to take care of ourselves in the process.
Alida:
Erica Hornthal is a licensed clinical professional counselor, board-certified dance movement therapist, and the CEO and founder of Chicago Dance Therapy.
Since graduating with her Master’s in Dance Movement Therapy and Counseling from Colombia College, Chicago Erica has worked with thousands of patients ages three to a hundred and seven. Known as “The Therapist Who Moves You”, Hornthal is changing the way people see movement with regards to mental health.
Erica is also the author of the best-selling book Body Aware. In fact, I know Erica because we have the same publicist, Dana Kaye who connected us. And I want to say that today’s conversation is especially interesting because we talk about body the as a site of trauma and also how to cope with trauma through a bodily-aware lens.
We talk about healing, we talk about movement, we talk about why exercise isn’t the be all and end all when it comes to your body, and we talk about how to practice non-judgment. I hope you enjoy today’s episode.
Alida:
Well, hello Erica and welcome to the Care Work podcast!
Erica:
Hi! Thanks for having me.
Alida:
I have to admit that I have been having a very stressful and frenetic day, and I finished reading your book Body Aware earlier in the week. And so, I was trying one of the techniques from your book. I was tensing and releasing and just noticing how it felt and seeing if that would center me. So, I feel especially prepped for today’s conversation because not only did I take the time to center, I also took the time to use one of the recommended tools in your book.
Erica:
Wonderful! I’m so glad that it spoke to you and hopefully you are feeling and seeing the benefits.
Alida:
Well, I am. It’s very much like PMR, progressive muscle relaxation which I’ve taught in my own clinical practice and in my own meditation and mindfulness practice. But it’s different when you are being told to do it from somebody else’s work and also in a different context. And I also wanted to say that the way that we got connected was through Dana Kaye, who is a fantastic publicist who supports both of us. And I told her that I was launching a podcast on care workers, and she said that I had to talk to you.
Erica:
[Laugh]
Alida:
So, I know why she told me I had to talk to you, but I’d like to ask you if Dana is hearing for the first time that I’m leading a podcast on care work, why did she think of you?
Erica:
Probably because a lot of my work for the first six or seven years as a movement therapist was not just working with individuals who were diagnosed with some type of degenerative or compromised cognitive, I should just say cognition, right? A degenerative disease like dementia or a movement disorder like Parkinson’s. And so, I think working with individuals in that manner just naturally lends itself to working with caregivers, people that are either caring for a loved one, you know, a client, and all of us that are just trying to care for ourselves. So, I don’t necessarily want to dilute the people that care for others, but we can’t forget that we all care for ourselves as well. And so, sometimes seeing self-care as care work or care giving for ourselves is the perspective that’s needed to actually start doing the work.
Alida:
It’s a great segue into just getting a sense of who you are and how you started your work path in this area. And I wanted to just get into this from the very beginning. So, I know that you are a licensed clinical professional counselor. That you founded Chicago Dance Therapy, that you are a Board-certified dance and movement therapist. What I want to know is how did you come to this very specific space? What did you decide to do at the very beginning of your career that brought you into this intersection of different interests and forms?
Erica:
Career I think is a word that needs to be highlighted because that’s exactly what I was doing. I was kind of wondering or kind of trying to figure out what my career path was going to be. And, you know, I had been interested in dance my whole life and considered myself a dancer of sorts my whole life. And I kept seeing that if I wanted dance to continue being a part of my life that it almost needed to be part of my career, and that for so many people who I felt like were whatever this means better, I’m air quoting myself “better dancers” than I was, they were pursuing careers that had nothing to do with dance or at the time didn’t seem connected to dance and were leaving behind this huge part of themselves. And it just felt like a huge disservice, a huge loss. I wasn’t ready to let go.
And so, in an attempt to stay connected to that I just happened to take a chance on joining, you know, a program, kind of as an unofficial dance major. And I’d say that within the first four to six months of that program before we had any official audition process we were asked to sit down with the chair of the department and talk about, you know, how we thought things were going, was this the correct career path for us, right? As opposed to them saying: “Look, this isn’t the right place for you”. [Laugh] If you could come to that conclusion on your own, it will make it a lot easier for us.
And so, you know, I knew that that wasn’t really in the cards for me. I didn’t want to be a choreographer; I didn’t want to be an educator. I just wanted to keep dancing. And it was in that meeting that the chair of the department told me about Dance Movement Therapy because she asked what my other interests were. She saw that I was taking, you know, Introduction to Psychology and it just kind of fit because I realized that really my whole life, I had been supporting people emotionally. I was the shoulder to cry on, I was also invested in other people’s emotional health, you know? It wasn’t just because I was forced into that role or felt like I was responsible for it. I really genuinely cared about how people felt and really wanted to help them help themselves. So, when she said dance and therapy, I didn’t know what that was going to look like, but it just felt like something inside of me said yes and I really never looked back.
Alida:
One of the things that sticks out to me, and I’m sure that you hear this a lot is that idea of dancers who are better than me. This comparison element when it comes to movement. So, I have a mobility disability. I’ve had challenges in my body, with my body, related to my body and what I appreciated so much about your book, which I think is the approach that you take as a movement and dance therapist in your work overall is that it’s non-judgmental, it’s non-prescriptive, it’s not about, you know, I’m going to beat this exercise target or I’m going to burn these many calories, or I’m going to be this level of dancer. It is very much about the embodied self and understanding the needs that you have that are maybe emotional needs that can be met with connection to your body.
There was a part of the book that stuck with me as somebody who is working through a variety of things currently. I had a traumatic birth experience, and I am recently diagnosed with complex post-traumatic stress disorder. And this idea that movement can be a form of healing, whether we are dealing with challenges with depression or anxiety, or trauma or stress. It was very interesting to me because of a lot of reasons that I’ve just mentioned, but also because it seems so counter to even the self-care narratives that we hear around movement and body. So, I’d love for you to talk a little bit more about how you work with people to heal through movement.
Erica:
Yeah. I really appreciate your perspective on that and just kind of highlighting how it connected for you because I think it really is important to reiterate whether you already read the book, whether you are interested in reading the book that it is kind of this gentle, person-centered approach, you know. And there are lots of different examples in the book, and it’s not meant to be “everybody needs to do this”. The point is that everybody is going to have different movement needs. And hopefully it provides something for everyone, which I cringe a little bit saying that because we can’t be everything for everyone, right? But the idea is that movement is inherent to all of us and so it’s not about achieving a certain level of movement because I don’t know what that’s going to look like, only you do.
And the point is that we have to explore it for ourselves. So, that’s really very much my approach. The book itself is kind of an ode to how I work with my clients and just creating this space where one, they can even begin to befriend their body, be curious about their body and their movement just even toy with the idea of listening to or feeling into sensations that they are experiencing in their body, you know, related to or correlated to mental health or mood.
So, again, it’s not prescriptive in any way. I always joke but my clients know that I don’t really give homework. [Laugh] You know, not like: “Here is an exercise, practice it and we’ll, you know, try it again next week”. It’s like, do with it what you want. And if it has worked for you in this particular session then hopefully that motivates you to use it outside of therapy, because that’s really where the work happens. So, it’s a very gentle approach, very person-centered. And it’s very much about empowering each individual person to harness and tap into the power of movement that’s at their disposal, which again, is going to be different for every person, whether you have movement challenges, limitations, differences while moving. That’s pretty much the definition of living, right? [Laugh] Because as Christine Caldwell says in her book Bodyfulness, the absence of movement equals death, defines death. So, it isn’t always about how well we are doing it, it’s just noticing how we are doing it, period.
Alida:
I’m really interested in this idea of befriending your body. Can you talk a little bit more about what it means to befriend your body?
Erica:
I think for me it’s that idea of meshing curiosity with non-judgment, which are two very hard, difficult things for most of us to do when it comes to body because so much of what we think about our body, which is this mental construct, right? It’s the mind that’s doing the judgment. I kind of joked the other day, but, you know, your knee doesn’t think: “Wow! Those are some tight pants that person is wearing!” Our knees don’t think that way. Our mind is the one creating that judgment around what we think or what we see, or how we would feel in those pants. So, this idea of befriending is beginning to be curious about what your body is experiencing. It’s also this idea of kind of going along for the journey, you know? Instead of what we tend to do, which is talk down to it, isolate it, silence it, minimize it, ignore it. And, you know, while we certainly still have disagreements and areas of contention with a friend, I think that we…there is a certain level of trust, right? There is a certain level of camaraderie, and compassion, and I guess love. When we are friends with, right? What we can do with someone that we have kind of common interests, right?
I see it as similar, right? Doing that with our body. It’s not just about: “Oh, I love my body. I love what it does for me, I love how it looks”. It’s appreciating the wisdom and the knowledge that it has, the intuition or some people will call it kind of a, you know, for some people it’s a gut reaction or gut response. I hesitate to say that because sometimes it’s not, but again, the only way I can really think of it is as kind of this inherent, intuitive wisdom, you know? And that is not based on judgment, and it’s not based on aesthetics. It’s really based on sensing, right? It’s like how we’ve come to exist in this body and experience the world and the relationships around us, including the one we have with ourselves.
Alida:
When you talk about this sort of difference between “I love my body. I love the way that it looks. I love what it does for me” versus “I appreciate its wisdom and its knowledge” it reminds me a debate happening right now in the body community of body positivity versus body acceptance or body neutrality. And I wonder if you have a perspective on these sort of twin movements and a position on them.
Erica:
You know, I struggle with that myself. What side of the coin am I on? You know, just like everything else, I feel that we are seeing or experiencing our world, we go from one side to the next. And I’m very much about finding not just the middle ground but exploring the spectrum. So, I don’t know a hundred percent how I feel about either. All I know is when you were talking, the sense that I get, like dropping into my body and just noticing when something kind of feels right is the right word? Probably not. When I feel something, period. And when you said body neutrality, that felt very settling to me. That to me suggests again, this idea of befriending and non-judgment because while I really appreciate so much about what the body-positive community and movement has done, I have a hard time with the word positive because for some is not always going to be positive the way we experience our body and other people aren’t going to be positive towards our bodies. And that’s the point, I guess. But neutrality for me, again, for me as a personal experience feels so much more validating because I can live on both ends of the spectrum. I can suffer with my body image one day, then I can be really positive about it the next. I can accept it one day and I can have a really hard time accepting it the next. But neutrality to me always suggest being curious and finding some semblance of compassion for my body in any given moment.
Alida:
It sounds like there is more choice in it too, that it’s actually less prescriptive–
Erica:
Yeah.
Alida:
than having to say: “This is my position on my body today, tomorrow, and forever”. Why do you think this is? Why do you think the conversation about bodies and care and compassion has gone in this direction?
Erica: I have to go back to what feels like this mind-body disconnect. You know, I think that so much of the how I look in my body, how I feel in my body, what I think about other people’s bodies again, it really comes down to the mind’s view, right? Seeing the bodies through the mind and what I try really hard to do for myself, I think it’s why my clients work with me and specifically seek out dance and movement therapy. And hopefully what this book is trying to set the stage for, create a foundation for is being with and getting to the body through the body, right? [Laugh]
So, we still want to acknowledge the mind, and we still get to kind of listen to its judgments, and be present to those, and also let it know that it’s okay to kind of take a back seat for a little bit, right? Like “I hear you and we are going to let body have its time in the sun right now”. And that the way I feel about my body or in my body can still come up, come through. I can feel uncomfortable, I can contort my body. I can have a sensation or something that doesn’t feel pleasurable but it’s not going to be experienced the same way as when the mind comes in and makes these judgments, right? Or I’ve been conditioned to think a certain way because of how I was raised, right? Or the environment that I live in. It’s not a new way of looking at things, I just think it’s been a very long time since that’s in the mainstream conversation and I think that’s one of the reasons it’s really hard to get people a hundred percent on board right away. You know, we are kind of like: “Mmm, I don’t know about that. Let me get back to you”. [Laugh]
Alida:
How do you get people on board with that? Because it may sound really simple, but I think that there has to be some kind of resistance to it because it doesn’t seem to come naturally to so many people, which is why they need this counsel and support.
Erica:
Right. I would agree. It doesn’t come naturally. It did not come naturally to me. I mean, I was the one in class, I remember, as a master’s student and I was like: “Well, just because I am a dance therapist doesn’t mean I see one. I like to talk” [Laugh]. And I mean, I laugh now but I remember, you know, getting these blank stares or like these you know looks from my professors, like: “You did not just say that”. I mean, I think there is room for everybody at the table. But now realizing what somatics in the body does I think when we don’t bring it into counseling or therapy, we are just doing ourselves a huge disservice, you know? We are ignoring or invalidating where most of our communication is housed.
So, how I get people on board I think is from the experience, you know? I’ve certainly had people come in resisting. I’ve had people come in and say: “Well, you were [paneled 00:20:38] with my insurance company”. _ “Okay, great!” And so: “So you are not really looking for specifically movement therapy.” _ “No, I don’t know what that is”, right? Or I warn them: “My office says Chicago Dance Therapy, so just letting you know it doesn’t mean you have to dance. [Laugh] But don’t freak out, you might freak out when you see that. It’s okay”. And I think it’s a little bit of trust, it’s a little bit of trying something out, seeing how it feels. And I think the more important question is, it’s not what gets people through the door, it’s what gets them coming back. And that’s the experience. It’s realizing that there is something very powerful in creating space to slow down, listen to what I’m feeling, not feel the need to talk or talk over, and that there is a lot being said. There is actually a lot that I don’t realize it’s being said when I’m with someone that allows me to have the space to listen or I just give myself permission to listen. That changes a lot. And people I think are kind of blown away by how much is uncovered in such a short amount of time.
Alida:
The first real exposure that I had to movement therapy was actually when I was getting my diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging certification at Georgetown because one of our facilitators had gone to the Strozzi Institute, which focuses on somatics, and was teaching us about resistance and our own sense of resistance through movement. So, we did a pretty basic exercise where we had a partner and we had to unexpectedly push our partner’s hand and then note what happened in their body, and they had to note what happened in their body. And I remember that that exercise produced such huge emotions in people because for one, they noticed how hard they pushed back, and they didn’t like to think of themselves as having a violent or angry or aggressive reaction. Or they were frustrated that their partner let them push back and didn’t stop them or stepped back. I remember having a very strange experience in mine where my partner pushed me really hard, really, really hard and I held my ground very much from a place of stillness. And then I said: “Hey! Is something going on with you?” And I realized that that was actually my response in my body too of “I must inquire what is wrong with you. In order to protect myself I need to communicate, I need to stay here, I need to assure you, I need to track in on you”. And it made my partner really, really angry. [Laugh] And I could see it in their body too. And it was my first moment of being able to say: “There is information here.” Because if you had asked me how I would respond to an unexpected threat, I wouldn’t have told you that’s how I would respond”.
Erica:
Right.
Alida:
So, that was my first real understanding of wisdom in the body. And I know that it’s a very simple exercise. I also know with this big push in mindfulness: mindful eating, mindful movement, mindful walking, walking meditation that people are being more and more exposed to it, but these techniques, these tools have existed for a very long time.
Erica:
Yeah.
Alida:
Based on your work, what you do with your clients, what you see in the space, where do you see the future of somatic movement therapies going?
Erica:
Well, I’m going to speak from an idyllic society [Laugh]. I’m going to speak from the most hopeful place that exists in my body. And that would be for somatic therapy to be therapy. Like for that to be the mainstream when it comes to psychotherapy. And that doesn’t mean getting rid of talk therapy. It means that there is a marriage between the two of them. That any counseling program that you go to, any social work program, any mental health program that you go to, they are automatically including some type of body awareness. And then, you know, trickling down from that there will be specialties, right? You can still go and get your certification in this or that, become a dance therapist, a somatic movement therapist, educator, etc. That’s my hope. I really hope that, I say, get back to that place because really, psychology was kind of based on this mind-body-spirit trifecta. And it was, you know, kind of with I guess dualism, Descartes, you know, where we just got this mind split and we just focus so much on mind, you know, and confuse I think confuse mind with intellect. And I don’t think they are the same. I think for me just realistically, like if in the next ten years let’s say we just had more knowledge and awareness of somatic therapies, you know that Western medicines, specifically psychologists, psychiatrists, mental health facilities, hospitals, just regularly new to offer these as, you know, suggestions, as possibilities. That they are not just seen as adjunct but that they could be really what’s missing from somebody’s care plan.
I kind of sigh, roll my eyes because we have quite a few residential treatment facilities in the Chicagoland area, and we are lucky that a lot of them incorporate creative arts therapies. And I think for a lot of patients that is what gets them back on track. And yet when they are discharged, they are not given a creative arts therapy discharge plan, right? They are set up with a social worker, a therapist, maybe an outpatient program. But if dance or art, music or drama therapy is really what helped them reconnect to themselves and start their road to recovery, why would we send them out into the world without that? It seems like a huge piece that’s missing. So, if in ten years we are on that track, that would be great. But my hope is that in the future somatics is inherent to psychotherapy. And that it is maybe not the focus a hundred percent, but that everyone has some experience and not just because it’s trauma-related but because when we are working with the mind, we are inherently working with the body.
Alida:
I wonder what the underlying problem is that we are so hesitant to think about movement therapy or somatic therapy as therapy? Why it has to be set apart? Why this is happening with creative arts therapies? What do you think is coming into that? Why is it so hard if are seeing that leading to results to incorporate it into a discharge plan?
Erica:
Yeah. Well, aside from the whole you know, mind rules, [Laugh] mind over matter, I think some of it does have to do with the fact that when we think of arts we do think of skill. And that for many of us who stopped doing any form of creative art when we were in elementary school, not only are we not connected to it, but we don’t feel like we have an expertise over it. As opposed to, I realize that this is not everyone’s experience, but in a let’s say neuro typical development as I get older the idea is that I get smarter or wiser. I learn more, I retain more. And that’s all coming from, you know, more from mind, right? This thought that I know, this thinking that I’m smart or I have some mastery over something. I recognize that that’s brain, which I always see as body, but we start to kind of talk ourselves out of the creative process and you know: “Oh, I don’t have time to draw! I don’t have time to paint. I don’t have time to dance”. Not realizing the whole while that when we feel stuck in something or our creative juices aren’t flowing, that it could really benefit us to go back to exploring some type of creativity.
Creativity is necessary. So, it’s not about how well you paint, it’s – are you painting? [Laugh] I mean, just putting a pen to paper and doodling when you feel like you can’t think of the next thing to say, you know? We are so reliant on what we say, how we say it. And so, my whole thing is it’s unfortunate because especially when it comes to therapy it discredits, it devalues, it invalidates, certainly unsupports. I don’t know if that’s a word. Doesn’t support people that don’t have the ability to verbalize what they feel and what they think. And those are often the people that need the therapy the most because they need someone to help validate their experiences. We can’t listen in the way we know to and so it’s almost as if their problems don’t exist, right? Can’t understand it so why try? And it’s not okay for a standard of health if anything, it’s not okay. Everybody deserves to be heard. So, yeah, I think we are so far removed from what we think of ourselves with regard to creativity. I don’t consider myself an artist, but I love art. I love to draw; I love to paint. But that’s my own judgment, right? Well, to be an artist I have to teach, or I have to get paid for it.
I was always told: “Well, you are not a professional dancer because you don’t get paid for it”, right? But if dance is part of my life, then it is part of my prof, it is part of my profession. I don’t call myself a professional dancer but it’s redefining the way we look at these things. And it doesn’t help that it slowly gets taken out of the curriculum in schools. So, art is really important when we are five, not so much when we are fifteen. And I would say that it’s actually just as if not more important at fifteen. And I think because the body is there, right? For someone who isn’t body-focused or doesn’t care to be body-focused, right? Because there are certainly practitioners that feel that way. It’s easier to dissociate, it’s easier to kind of separate, to check out, right? You can just listen to the words and you don’t really have to notice or feel anything when they come in. And I think that’s sad in a lot of ways. I’ve certainly heard or through the grapevine read: “Oh, that was the easiest session. The client talked the whole time. I didn’t have to say anything. So, it’s like “Well, are you playing your favorite episode of Friends in your head while the person is talking? Are you present to what they are saying? Do you feel anything?” If we are just feeling like we are a body in the room, just so that someone has someone to talk to, that’s not really doing the work. And so, for me it’s like I’m committed to this body-based psychotherapy. That means that I’m listening with my whole body and if something is off, or, I mean it’s okay when things are off because I can kind of own that but if I know ahead of time this is really going to interfere with the way I show up in my work today, then just like if I woke up and had the flu, it’s a reason for me to say: “Hey, I’m going to need to reschedule our session. Or “What availability do you have?” It’s like giving yourself permission as a therapist to take a mental health day. And I realize that that’s not convenient. It might mean we don’t make money that day. It might mean our clients get upset with us, but for me it’s also modeling what I want my clients to do. I want them to be responsible and be aware and recognize how their body is contributing to their mental health. Or, ideally when they are feeling that way, that is when they have therapy. But I have to draw the line for myself between: “Wow, I’m feeling this way and I NEED therapy right now” versus “Wow, I’m feeling this way and that means I CAN’T provide therapy right now”. It’s hard when it’s your livelihood and to make that distinction can feel, I don’t know, self-sabotaging, we can have guilt over it: “Oh, but I shouldn’t be taking care of myself”. But whoever said that taking care of others means we are not supposed to be taking care of ourselves? Where did that narrative come from? It’s a challenge but I think that I’m more committed to that than ever before so that I can continue to show up for my clients.
Alida:
With that in mind I’d love to ask for folks who are listening today, what’s something you would want them to do coming out of this episode?
Erica:
The thing that I found most helpful to share is something that I ended up putting I think really further toward the end of the book. And the more I think about it, maybe it was sprinkled through, sprinkled throughout the book but it really comes through at the end as this acronym – ACE – acing our mental health. And so, if people listening walk away with nothing else but this acronym, it really sums up the body aware approach. And so, the A is becoming more aware, intentionally setting aside time whether it’s thirty seconds, whether it’s two hours, however much time, it can be five seconds, right? As you sit down at your desk before you open up your computer, become aware of your movement, become aware of your body. The C in the book is challenge, but more recently I’ve actually been using the word curious, right? So, challenge the way your body or your movement is showing up in that way, become curious about it. And the E, again in the book is expand, but now I’ve kind of been adding the word express. So, find a way to expand that movement. If you are noticing your breath and it’s tight, is there a way that you can expand it? Can you move it from your chest to your abdomen? Maybe it’s connected to your posture so if you shift your posture and you just sit up ever so slightly, how much more room or capacity do you have to breathe? Express what’s happening, so if something is tight, you know, circle it out, wiggle it out, shake it out. It doesn’t have to be this big, eye-opening, enlightening experience. It’s just learning to reconnect to the body and what it means. And that can be stumping, wiggling, shaking, following an impulse, I mean, in a healthy manner. [Laugh] Feeling a sensation, you know? Feeling that impulse to move and following it. Noticing what happens. So, facing your mental health if nothing else, try that.
Alida:
Beautifully said. My last, last, last question is: Where can we find you?
Erica:
[Laugh] Well, my website is ericahornthal.com but I tend to hang out mostly on Instagram these days. And my handle is The.Therapist.Who.Moves.You
Each word is separated by a period. But if you type in: the therapist who moves you, I’m sure you’ll find me. So, yeah. That’s kind of the social media platform that seems to be for me and I guess my audience, so to speak, seems to be the most active so if you are interested or want to join our conversation, or find out what I’m up to, that’s usually the place that I post it.
Alida:
I know I said that was my last question, but are you taking on clients?
Erica:
I am! I am! So, in person or like insurance-based clients obviously would need to be in the area in which I practice. But I am really expanding this idea of kind of somatic consulting, you know, working with other practices that just want to integrate or kind of support their current caseload with a more somatic approach. Again, really based off of the Body Aware book. So, it’s not its own movement, it’s not its own credential or certification. Just bringing it back to the body, so that people feel like they have some agency and even some mastery over how they can start to engage their clients with somatic awareness.
Alida:
Thank you. I hope that people buy your book Body Aware, available everywhere now, and follow you on Instagram, and take you up to work with you. It seems like a lot of could really benefit from what you are teaching. So, thank you so much Erica. It’s been a pleasure.
Erica:
Thank you and thank you for this platform. It’s been lovely to just interact and hear your perspective, right? Like I want to hear more about your work, so when I have a podcast I’ll invite you on mine. [Laugh]
Alida:
[Laugh] I’m there. Consider me signed up.
Erica:
[Laugh] Okay. It may take years, but I’ll let you know.
[Music plays]
Alida:
This podcast is a collaboration between Ethos and Alida Miranda-Wolff.
Episodes are available anywhere podcasts are found.
Your host is Alida Miranda-Wolff.
The opening theme Vibing Introspectively was written and recorded by Logan Snodgrass.
Production assistance was provided by Sonni Conway and Miera Garcia.
All sound editing and production was provided by Corey Winter.
[End of recording] [00:39:09]
