[00:36:40]
Erica:
I am helping people while also processing and deprogramming myself, and so if there are parts of your process that you need to work through, it is important to understand what you need to reclaim as a part of your work as opposed to expecting anyone in the DEI space or antiracism space to be the one to do it for you. Your emotional labor must be processed by you, you cannot outsource it.
[Music plays]
Alida:
Welcome to the Care Work podcast. I’m your host Alida Miranda-Wolff and for the last ten years as a diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging practitioner I’ve focused on providing care to other people for a living. This is a podcast about people like me, care workers. I explore with a host of guests what it means to offer care and to take care of ourselves in the process.
Alida:
Erica Courdae is a trusted advisor to entrepreneurs and executive teams committed to shifting focus, power, and resources in order to create more equity in their business and the world. In 2018 Erica co-founded the Pause and the Play podcast, which she also expanded to include a community and consultancy. A certified coach and 20+ year beauty industry veteran, Erica has provided training for established businesses like Blue Cross Blue Shield, Martha Beck Incorporated, and Paul Mitchell School. Her voice has been featured on podcasts, workshops, and online communities with a combined reach of over 50.000 people. In today’s episode Erica talks about how care work and energy work are directly connected, focusing on everything from her life as a salon owner and beauty industry veteran to the power of plants and crystals, and how we might all better learn to become imperfect allies.
Erica, welcome to the Care Work podcast. I’m so excited to have you here and what I’d love to do in starting our conversation today is understand who are you, Erica, in the context of care work?
Erica:
Hello. I’m so happy to be here. Thank you so much. And yes, same. I feel like we are circling kind of a similar orbit, so super excited to be here, and glad to hear that I was a good guest. I’ll take that. I come in and I take care of people’s homes [Laugh] when I’m on their shows, so I’m glad to hear that.
I think when we think of just breaking it down, you know, the word care is obviously somehow being invested in someone’s existence, someone’s thriving, someone’s current status, the future status that they are trying to get to. Having some desire to be a part of being a support system, being a decision-maker or a facilitator that is of some type of help or benefit to somebody else, and I think I’ve for myself going on a journey of really shifting the word work. And it not having to always be such a heavy word, and not always having to be around such a “I give you, you give me” and it feeling like it has to be, you know: “I build your house, you put on my door” kind of thing. And so, I feel like the work is some type of mental, physical, emotional or spiritual investment of time, of energy, of tasking that you are somehow you are putting into someone else’s well-being. So, to simplify it it’s investment and dedication to well-being and beneficial outcomes of someone else by being emotionally, spiritually, emotionally and physically present and accessible to them.
Alida:
How does that show up for you in your practice as a diversity, equity, and inclusion leader?
Erica:
[Laugh] Interesting. I think there are a few things. I think part of it for me is the fact that I am dedicated in creating outcomes for people including myself as a black woman in America that we are not regularly centered individuals that are marginalized or overlooked, that don’t have the same level of access or opportunities being able somehow or another impact and shift that. But it’s also for reminding people that are white that they can be a part of the change, and that they can do it without it being painful. I think especially in 2020 there were people that really frame DEI work as like, almost like if it didn’t hurt you are not doing it right. And so, that’s where for us if everything that I do on my own and everything we do on Pause On The Play, it really does go back to imperfect allyship. It goes back to that reminder that you don’t have to be perfect. You are going to learn, you are going to not be ideal at everything. It’s what you do next. And I know that sometimes the word allyship isn’t always the word that everyone in the space loves. For me at the end of the day is understanding that imperfection must happen and you must be in action, whether is co-conspirator, whether is collaborator, whether it’s ally. At the end of the day, are you going to be a part of the change? Are you going to be active? Are you willing to invest and actually do something? Or do you just want to talk about it and consider it?
Alida:
I want to dig into a few things that you shared because I think there is a lot there. The first piece is this notion of imperfect allyship. And you have created an entire community around it, which is a huge part of your care work.
Erica:
Yes.
Alida:
How you are holding space, how you are giving back within your own community, and perhaps how you are revisiting what work means. So, I would love to just start with – What does it mean to be an imperfect ally?
Erica:
Being an imperfect ally is understanding that you are being in action, like actually doing something that is supporting people that do not look, live, or love the way that you do. Maybe they don’t live, love or earn the way that you do but essentially somebody whose reality is not the same as yours, being able to consider what that is and being willing to be in action to close those gaps. To use your privilege and your platform to support them. To utilize what you have access to give them opportunities that they may not have gotten had you not maybe shared your network, had you not been able to amplify them to give a different level of visibility. Not from a place of saviorism. So, I want to make sure it’s not being confused with that but more of a: “Hey! I have a lot more access and I want to make sure that I use this for good. I want to leverage this.” And so you are consensually bringing somebody that wants to receive that benefit from you into opportunities that they can benefit from. But I do think consent is a big piece of it, but it’s basically understanding that I’m not going to be perfect. I’m going to do X, Y, Z things that have actually been requested by the communities or individuals that will benefit from it. This is what I’m going to do to help with this and I’m going to allow myself to learn along the way and also be willing to take honest feedback on how I can be better, and continuously being processed to grow and to work on creating equity. Because equity is the vessel on the way to equality. We hope we get to equality, but equity is really what needs to happen to fix the disparities.
Alida:
One thing that comes up for me is this idea of action versus talking. Because I think so much of diversity, equity, and inclusion work focuses on what it is you are saying. So the inclusive language component, what terms you are using, what terms you are not using, what questions you ask, what questions you don’t ask. What’s your take on the push for inclusive language versus taking those actions?
Erica:
I think it’s a both/and. I think it’s important to respect people’s desire and honestly birthright to be addressed and or talked about or referenced the way that they want to be, and so, I mean to me that is again a part of consent. I’m not going to call you what I want to call you. I’m not going to assume, you know, I can’t pronounce your name so I’m just not going to do it. I think that’s a piece of identity that when you continuously chip away at that, that’s extremely harmful. So, I think when we are addressing word choices that it is a piece of how we reference ourselves and how we process ourselves and so, those word choices are very important. But I also acknowledge the fact that without action the word choices can really just be a distraction. It can be something for us to focus on that allows the inequities to continue to just chug along unchecked because if we don’t put them together, then we are missing the fact that: “Great! We changed these words, but we didn’t actually change the outcomes. We didn’t make it so that someone that identifies as XYZ we didn’t change what they have access to, we didn’t change the privileges that they still can’t tap into. We didn’t move any of that, so if someone were to come in and say: “Great! I’m going to acknowledge your pronouns if you show up as “they, them” and you are letting us know that this is who you are, “this is how I want to be respected”. But you are not going to be able to have access to this job, you are not going to be able to not only stay at this job, but you are not going to get any types of promotions, you are not going to get any opportunities to get more pay. We are not going to represent you as a whole person. You are never going to show up in photos. So, you know, we are not going to change any of the things that actually affect you. We are not going to make sure that healthcare is accessible for you and your partner, and the children that you have because we are going to acknowledge: “Oh, if you didn’t birth this child, it’s not your child and we are not going to cover them. So, if you leave the inequities in place, but you acknowledge my pronouns, well, that’s kind of pointless. And so this is where you need the actions and you need the understanding that language inclusivity only works if you partner it with these other pieces. I know that was a big old answer. I hope that actually [Laugh] answered the question.
Alida:
It does, and it makes me wonder when you reflect on your own working life, what brought you to this place of wanting to bring together imperfect allies?
Erica:
Honestly, I feel like it’s a part of how I always operated. I don’t necessarily feel like perfection is the goal. I have spent a lot of time in my career, in the beauty industry. And there was a lot of DEI work that showed up in what I did in the beauty industry. And I just didn’t always know it.
But, you know, learning how to cut hair, to color hair, to style hair I was not ideally from the moment that I started. So, it required a certain amount of tenacity and willingness to try, to maybe not hit the goal that you were hoping right away, but to stick with it, it requires you to be willing to continue learning. It requires you to understand that there is more than one way to do it, you know? There’s options, there’s different hair textures, there’s different products, people’s environments when it comes to climate, lifestyle. All of these variables are happening. So, you have to be open, you have to be able to pivot, you have to be malleable and so it really just set this stage for the fact that when we begin to address diversity, equity, and inclusion collectively or as individual concepts, you are not going to do any of them perfectly. That’s not a real thing.
And so to have witnessed people sharing with me how they would be in communities of people that did DEI work, and they would love the content, but they would be too afraid to interact, which if you are not even willing to be in conversation and talk about where you are and what you want to do, it’s very likely that you are not actually going to do anything. Or, what you are doing is more about what makes you feel good to do. It is what you want to do and maybe not what these individuals or groups actually need. And so I wanted to approach this from a place of removing the fear and the stigma to get it wrong, to be imperfect at it and to give a certain amount of permission to learning as you are doing, and being willing to be redirected by someone, and to not center yourself because it’s not about you. And understanding that this is not a permission slip to go out and be inconsiderate with what you are doing, and to just blame it on: “Oh, I’ve been doing it imperfectly”. But you genuinely give yourself grace when mistakes are made simply because, you know, I accidentally used the wrong word, or I accidentally just got nervous, and I didn’t say this perfectly and knowing that you are also learning. So, what you know now may be different six months…it might me different tomorrow. Things move quickly. And so you have to give yourself grace so that you don’t somehow or another get so brow-beaten by it that you are unable to continue.
Alida:
There is so much there and one of the things that I’m noticing is when I think about what makes somebody a really incredible hairstylist it’s the fact that they aren’t centering themselves, but the person sitting in their chair and that they are acknowledging how important hair is to that person in their chair.
I’m constantly reminded of this speech from Fleabag that goes: “Hair is everything. We wish it wasn’t so we could actually think about something else occasionally, but it is. It’s the difference between a good day and a bad day.”
And while it’s a funny scene I relate to it so much because my hair is extremely important to me. I have very long hair. It’s captured in the back but my hair is almost waist length, actually past my waist and I’m constantly asked when am I going to cut my hair, and I will say the worst hairstylist I’ve ever had had wanted to do something that they envisioned with my hair, as opposed to what I want to do with my hair. And the hairstylist I have today, every time I get a haircut folks would be like: “Your hair looks exactly the same, just shinier”. And that’s exactly what I want! [Laugh] I don’t want to change my hair. I don’t want it to be different and that’s why I keep going back to her. And so, I see the parallel with your DEI work and this idea of who is centered and who is not centered. I’m wondering for you, what got you into beauty? What got you into that industry from the start?
Erica:
It was something that honestly, I always wanted to do. I remember back in high school I wanted to do cosmetology because I went to a school that actually did offer it, and my mom was like: “No! you need to do this International Baccalaureate GT Program”. And I’m like: “I don’t care about this program! I don’t want to do this!” And so, I mean, I did it but then I graduated high school and did hair anyway because that was what I wanted to do, and I think for me part of it is I actually enjoy the physical interaction of it. I like having my hands in hair. I like the styling of it. I like the connection that comes from being in conversation with people. I enjoy the… I’m going to say, the safety that can come up, because for a lot of people, like, they come in and honestly there are times, I would joke about it, but it’s kind of true. I should really be getting paid more because I’m a therapist [Laugh] because I have been in conversations and learned things that I’m like: “Oh, this was maybe a little more than I needed to know! And apparently you needed a safe space. And you wanted to talk with someone that maybe wasn’t someone that was directly in your life where you had to worry about – Can I talk about this? But I wasn’t so far removed that I had no frame of reference. So I gave the space to where people could share, they could be able to be vulnerable, they could be honest, they could be open. And they trust me, you know, because you are trusting me with your vulnerabilities and your emotions, and your experiences and you are also entrusting me with your image because you are saying: “Hey, do my hair! Help me to feel good about what I witness in the mirror. Help me to have a foundation that I can then go do for myself.” And recognizing how people have that type of trust and connection with me is a very humbling thing, and it’s something that has always kind of felt good.
Alida:
So, how do you see that tension play out between beauty as a form of caring for yourself but also beauty as a way that you keep from accepting yourself?
Erica:
We used to do a lot of weddings in my business and one of the things that was really huge for me was when someone would come in to get a trial for a wedding and they would sit down on this chair and someone is about to do their hair or do their makeup. The client would almost immediately want to go into: “Well, my hair is really flat or I don’t like my eyelashes. I can’t see them or I have no eyebrows, or like, my lips are really…all these things. And so, I’m like: “No. Tell me what you do like. Tell me what you want to highlight. Tell me what you enjoy. Don’t tell me what’s wrong and what you want to fix. Let’s focus on what you feel good about. And let’s also not be focused on what you feel like “you should do”. You don’t have to wear a ton of makeup if you don’t want to. You don’t have to wear your hair up if you don’t want to. You don’t have to put extensions in if your hair is not long. You don’t have to cut it if it’s long. You don’t have to do any of those things. When I would have clients that would decide to grow their relaxers out similar to the process that I went through. I would always want to make sure – Is this because this is what you want to do? Or Is this because you feel like you are supposed to? I want to color my grey. _ Okay, are you coloring your grey because you want to color your hair and before you were just like: I don’t want an extra thing and now, you know what? It’s time to play. Like, let’s make sure that you are making these choices because this is what you want and not because you feel like this is what someone of my age or status or stature does. And that for me was a huge part of it because it’s, you know, easy sometimes to just go along with the program. But I wanted to make sure that whatever my clients were choosing to do, truly came from choice. And if they felt like they weren’t sure, then we had that conversation and I’m like: “Well, you know you don’t have to do anything right now, right?” Like, I’m not going to feel a way if you decide not to get highlights today and we just blow it out and style it, or we just cut it or whatever. Like, I would rather not get that money and you feel like you are good with what you leave with and you continue to have that trust in me, and you continue to believe in yourself and to inquire deeper about how you feel about yourself than for this to be a money grab and then after the fact you are like: “Oh my God! This does not feel like me.” And then we have another whole set of issues that come up. I don’t want anyone to feel like they can’t tap into what is truly best for me right now and what do I want because I can choose.
Alida:
Going back to imperfect allyship and your work in DEI, how do you manage people who don’t want to engage because they are protecting themselves, because one of the things that comes up for me is to be an ally you need people to be allies too. And those people might be wary, they might be cautious, they might me afraid, they might be angry. What do you tell allies who are trying to help, but who may not be the choice for the people they want to help?
Erica:
If you know that you have access and privilege that someone else doesn’t and any of their discomfort or aggravation or annoyance at you for having that when they are likely suffering from that lack that causes a huge, you know, hole or shift or rift in what their reality is. If that is enough to make you stop doing the work, I am not the person for you. And it really is that simple. I think that there are stages throughout this work, and for some people, they just realized it and they are really nervous and they are in the information-gathering stage, which, I mean. One, you are always be gathering information, but for some people that’s a part of their kind of initiating, moving into diversity, equity, and inclusion work, anti-racism work. Just awareness as a whole, but if you stay there I can’t help you. I am not in a position to be able to support you if you are unwilling to understand that you represent lack to some people. And that now triggers your sensitivities and you want to run. I can’t help you. If you are unwilling to be in discomfort because of having to face what whiteness and white supremacy and all of the isms – sexism, racism, all of these things, like what they have enacted and what you may be a part of upholding whether directly or indirectly.
I can’t help you if that sensitivity is something that you have to work through. I can’t hold your hand. Because the reality is I am helping people while also processing and deprogramming myself. And so, if there are parts of your process that you need to work through, it is important to understand what you need to reclaim as a part of your work as opposed to expecting anyone in the DEI space or antiracism space to be the one to do it for you. Your emotional labor must be processed by you. You cannot outsource it.
Alida:
What is so important about what you are saying is how clear your boundaries are. And how you are setting boundaries to protect yourself while still doing this very vulnerable and difficult work.
Erica:
Unfortunately there are people that, you know, hurt people hurt people. And so, when they are going through things it’s easier to be able to try to offload it somehow and to lash out and throw it at someone else, you know, weaponize that pain. But that’s just continuing this chain of pain and trauma and inequities and hurt, and a lack of progress. And so, I hate that that’s where people go, but I don’t know that logic is a part of it. And I think that for any of us that are doing any type of work that puts you in a vulnerable position, you do have to figure out what your boundaries are and you have to be willing to not only maintain them but understand that there are times where somehow you’ll still be like: as much as I put up, you still somehow found a way to get around it. And you know, is it journaling? Is it meditation? Whatever it is that works for you to be able to still have something that you can go back to.
Alida:
When you’ve had a hard day, what do you read?
Erica:
Honestly, it depends. If I’m at a place of really, like if there is something specific that I’m learning about, I might just go to that because I get to go to something that I’m interested in, that I want to learn more about. I want to learn more about where it came from and where it is now and things like that. Or, it’s just something that maybe is a part of my life and I’m continuing to learn about. A good example of that is plants. I have a lot of plants. I thoroughly enjoy my plants. [Laugh] And so, I enjoy reading more about how to care for them. One of the books I’m reading I think it’s, it’s not the New Plant Parent, oh, it’s The Plant Rescuer. That’s what it is! And it’s really about you know, let’s not necessarily always pick the perfect plants if we are going to get plants because somebody is always going to pick that one. Pick the one that maybe is like a little bit less loved or maybe it got too much water in the nursery, or its rootbound and you need to put it in a new pot and let it get some air and spread out more. And so, for me it is very calming and centering and fulfilling for me to tend to my plants, and so learning how to do that and as someone that used to be a self-professed, I have a black thumb [Laugh]. I can’t grow anything and now I have a ton of plants that are flourishing. And I can share them with other people. This is an extension of me caring for something that is a living organism that I am able to help flourish. I can share it as a gift with other people, and that tending definitely helps to kind of decompress. And so when I am learning about how to continue to be better at that, you know, extending what I know and also sharing my knowledge as a resource for other people, that’s how I like to show up in life. So, that helps to be something that is a part of allowing me to move more into “I’m not working and this is just Erica the human” but also, I’m doing something that feels fulfilling and it feels nourishing and I can share it with others and I mean, it’s actually fun for me. Put me in a plant store and I’m like: “Oooh!” Kid in a candy store! So excited, so fun. So excited! [Laugh]
Alida:
I have to share with you that I have fifty-two plants.
Erica:
I’m probably not far behind you. [Laugh]
Alida:
I am a plant person. I am a plant person who has a very similar story to yours. And I’m going to pick up the Plant Rescuer because little known fact about me, I have a plant hospital. So, I have a table of abandoned plants or plants that aren’t doing well.
Erica:
Oh!
Alida:
About half of them don’t make it. But the other half end up rebuilding and flourishing. I have a pathos who has completely leaved out after probably six months of putting some work into tending to her. So, I will say that you were speaking to my heart when you were talking about that.
Erica:
[Laugh]
Alida:
You know, I have a whole ritual around watering my plants as part of my decompression from a hard and difficult week. So, in terms of self-care plants are part of that for me, and that idea of life, of being surrounded by life is big for me. And so, I would love to ask you apart from tending to plants and setting really firm boundaries and having a strong community, how do you take care of yourself as somebody who does work with energy, and who does hold the feelings and experiences of others?
Erica:
Part of it is definitely my personal, spiritual practices. I am someone that, I grew up exposed to religion. It wasn’t something that was pushed on me heavily, but there was always this kind of, this undertone of, you know, religion being there. And I have never really, it never really felt like home for me. And so, over the years I’ve been able to explore what does feel good for me.
Meditation is something that I’m not always great at it [Laugh]. I definitely have wandering brain and there is something about just taking this time to be still and even if my mind is wandering, I am doing one thing. And as someone that can tend to try to do too many things at one time, that for me has been really good. It’s something that I’ve actually enjoyed. I actually create meditations for people. I’m on an app called Aura, so that’s been something that’s been really interesting as a part of my centering and my, you know, spirituality as well.
I love crystals and so [Laugh] it’s less about…Well, first of all, they are just pretty. I like pretty rocks. But it’s less sometimes about the crystal itself being the thing and much more about this is a moment where I have like have gotten still, or centered or I’m focused on something that can kind of bring me back to center. So, like if you know, I have, let’s say I have a piece of black obsidian in my pocket. If I touch it, there is a moment that I might be like: “Mmm, okay. I know that this is to help me be protected of energies that aren’t supportive and to release things that are not mine and help ground me. I might be like: “Mmm, do I feel ungrounded in this moment? Do I feel like I have energy that isn’t mine? So, there is a mindfulness for me that comes with the interactions with it. So, for me that’s really helpful because that also is reminding me, you know, have I taken a moment to take a deep breath and release anything that maybe isn’t my energy? Am I holding on to something that I can’t change? Am I overthinking something that has already happened and can I possibly give myself more grace? Is it something that I need to journal on?
Tarot cards are another. Do I need to pull a card to kind of be able to be like: how am I feeling? What do I need to know? And you know, I have a number of things that are a part of it, and the beauty of it that somehow or another still impacts or intersects with what I do is that I also do this and I’m able to recognize where do these inequities show up in these practices that can sometimes make people that aren’t regularly centered in these practices feel like they don’t have access to them? Who feels like meditation isn’t for them? Thinking about Tarot, Pamela Colman Smith that did all of the art work for the original tarot forever ago was completely erased from that process, was a queer, black woman. So, being able to learn where me accessing these and reclaiming them for myself, that reclamation is a part of me actually bucking against the system that tried to steal that from me and to make me conform to Christianity. And so, me being able to figure out what is it that works for me? What is it that feels inherent to me and not I’m just going to take everybody’s stuff because I can, which is a part of, you know, colonialism but of a piece of what really feels like it is here to support me that I have access to, that actually is a part of what is mine, and what is inherent to me and what is of support to me that will help me to let go of what’s mine, will help me to be present, will help me to plan for the future and yet allow myself to live in the moment?
Alida:
Beautifully said!
Erica:
Thank you.
Alida:
If we want to keep in touch with your beautiful and insightful words, where can we find you?
Erica:
You can actually come on over to PauseOnThePlay.com You’ll be able to learn about me as well as my business partner India Jackson who together we are Pause On The Play. You’ll be able to also click through and learn more about the podcast, which is also called Pause On The Play. I am the host there. You’ll be able to actually not only listen in to the podcast but also take in the articles that we create for accessibility there, for anyone that is possibly hard of hearing, that is deaf, anyone that is neurodivergent so it gives you a way to be able to not just have the transcript, but also be able to catch some of the nuance that is happening there. And you’ll be able to learn about Pause On The Play, the community, where individuals that are [ unintelligible word 00:35:46] are seeking to explore their own process of reconsidering your normal, which is on my shirt today, by the way. And how it is that they can be a part of being the change that they want to see.
Alida:
Thank you so much Erica. It’s been an absolute pleasure having you on the podcast today.
Erica:
Thank you for having me.
[Music plays]
Alida:
This podcast is a collaboration between Ethos and Alida Miranda-Wolff.
Episodes are available anywhere podcasts are found.
Your host is Alida Miranda-Wolff.
The opening theme Vibing Introspectively was written and recorded by Logan Snodgrass.
Production assistance was provided by Sonni Conway and Miera Garcia.
All sound editing and production was provided by Corey Winter.
[End of recording] [00:36:40]
